So some of the kids in the youth group have really started asking me some very intelligent questions. They were so good and so complex that it has inspired me to write about christianity in General. Rather than doing this in Random Q and A fashion... I figured I would try to create one really big picture, and we could just have ourselves a little theology discussion and debate. Feel free to comment on this one. God and Theology are things that I really love to talk about and discuss (but not argue). Be patient with me... it will be long, but I'm painting a very large picture. So here we go:
"In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth." That's Genesis 1:1 In case you have never opened a Bible. The 1st chapter of Genesis goes on to detail the entire creation process. On Earth, God created Land, sea, skies, plants, animals, and finally humans in His own image. First God created a man, and then a woman from him. (Adam and Eve if you will, but if you study closely you will not find names for them) After God created each thing, He said it was good, but when man was created God said he needed more. Man needed someone else, a helper, a lover, a friend to complete him. Then God declared that to be good, as well.
We describe God as good.... so what do we mean by that? We have diminished the word "good" in our modern vocabulary. If we really enjoy something, or find something acceptable or desirable, we say it is Awesome, great, fantastic, amazing, or maybe tight, the bomb, sweet, thunder, or whatever tomorrow's word on the street will be. The word good was all that God needed. Why? Because the word good meant the absence of anything bad. Can you say that about any other word mentioned above? I doubt it. They are great words, but when we use them we are not always describing something in a good way. Example: The flood caused by Katrina in New Orleans was both awesome and amazing, but you cannot say that nothing bad was present, therefore it was not good. But we call God good, and He said the same of His creation.
We established that God created everything and that God said it was good. Does anyone have a red flag waving frantically yet? The meaning of good is the absence of anything bad right? When you look around God's creation today chances are you see things that are bad. So how does God get off calling it good? When He created it it was. So you ask, if Evil was not present where did it come from? How did it arise and create the world we live in today? Excellent question.
We seem to either forget or ignore that first part of Genesis where God states that He created the Heavens and the Earth. The heavens were created first. And who was in the Heavens? God was, and so were the Angels. To focus we will focus on the three Arch Angels we know about. All three were Angels created by God for a specific purpose.
First Michael: Mos of us have seen the movie "Michael" that starred John Travolta, and we have a small idea of who Michael is. For those who do not, view Michael as the high commander of God's armies of Angels. second Gabriel: He was God's announcer. He makes several appearances throughout the Bible in order to proclaim God's word or instructions to God's people.
Third Lucifer: or as we know him- Satan. God Named Him Lucifer. Lucifer was designed to give praises to God. (how ironic is that?) It is not that Lucifer simply led the angels in praising God. When you think of this don't think of your church organist or praise leader. No, Lucifer eminated music wherever he went. If it helpd you to view a music box sticking out of his chest, do that, it was probably something close to that idea. He could not help but to praise God wherever he went.
So how did Lucifer fal to what he is today? The same way you did... free will. WHAT!?!?! God gave the Angels free will too? But they are perfect. They can't choose wrong! That was your thought wasn't it? If not, I bet it was at one point in time. It was for me. But Lucifer Got greedy. He wanted everything that God had. He was and is powerful, and his pride blinded him and made him believe he was as strong and as powerful as God was. His Greed and Lust for Power became his downfall. Because of it, he was cast out of heaven and made to rule over the underworld. Unfortunately, Satan managed to convince one third of God's angels to choose to come with him. now tell me you don'tbelieve in Deamons, because that is who they are. Satan has introduced the evil temptations into the world, and that is why we are as messed up as we are today.
Why? I mean really....Why would Satan care at all about the people on earth? What use does he have for them? Honestly, none that I can think of. It's not like he is going to take humans to war against angels. Even he knows that is idiotic, no matter how many there are. Michael could probably let out one scream and kill them all. No. There is one reason. This is why satan cares about you, and tries to come after you. God kicked him out of heaven and forced him to the underworld. This without a doubt infuriated him. If you are mad at someone it is your natural instinct to want to take from them what they value the most. That is what Satan does. He goes after what God desires the most.... a relationship with his people. Taking that away is how he could hurt God the most, and Satan knew it.
So we move on to a new question. Why did God give us free will if it woul lead to evil, death, and destruction? Why let people choose if they are going to choose to hurt themselves? Why give the ones you love the chance to walk away? Let's look at it this way: Put yourself in the role of a mother or a father (please choose the one that applies). you have conceived a son, and have also built a fully functional human robot. This robot is programmed to do everything you ask, listen to everything you say, and choose the correct response in every situation. It is bound by its programming. It can not go against it, and it is true that it will not give you any problems. But you also have a son who, probably taking after his parent, is deceitful and mischevious. Which will bring you more joy? Seeing that Robot take off running to embrace you, because that is what it is programmes to do? Or seeing your son take off running to embrace you, because he has chosen to and because he loves you?
God has the ability to make us do what He wants, when He wants it, and do it how He wants it done, but where is the love in that? There is no love in creating a bunch of machines to do your every request. That is how a factory works, it is not how a joyful and loving relationship works. In order for God to love you, he had to give you the opportunity to choose whether you would return that love. If not, he would be no different than you autocratic tyrant of a boss, or a slave driver operating a sweat shop in Taiwan.
That was the easy part :) Now it gets fun.
Some say that if God truly loved us, He would not allow any of us to be separated from Him and spend an eternity in Hell. still others would step farther, and twist scripture and say that God has predestined some of us to spend eternity apart from Him. This comes down to how you define predestination. I see three approaches to defining predestination pretty often. 1st some us it to support that God is all knowing, and He knows what you will do before you decide to do it. True statement, but don't call it predestination. It defines God's knowledge well, but does nothing to speak of His actions. The 2nd group would say that predestination is like fate, and that God has already purposely set into motion a chain of events that we can do nothing to change. For example: God programmed you to be reading this very blog, at this exact moment in your life. choice is just an illusion. this takes us back to the machine complex we discussed earlier. It is contrary to God's character, and leaves out the chance for true love. If God wanted to control everything in such a way, He would never have allowed Evil into the world in the First place. 3rd Still others say that god is only active in predestining those who will find His salvation, and those who will not. For these I almost pull my hair out, because they are so close.
Predestination has everything to do with people finding salvation. They did great there. However was not God predestining certain humans to be saved and certain humans not to, but rather God predestining how those humans were to be saved. They would be saved by faith in Him, and faith in the cross of Jesus Christ. This salvation is for all God's people. Let that sink in. All God's people. Your church family, the disciples who followed Jesus, Paul, Billy Graham, a tribal church in Kenya, your little cousin billy Ray who was just baptized yesterday. But what about Abraham, Noah, Moses, David? Did Jesus save them? Absolutely!
WHAT!?!?! They lived and died before Jesus. How did Jesus Save them? They could never have even heard of Him!! I ask this.... how are they saved without Him? Do you really think they managed to make an atoning sacrifice for every malicious or lustful thought that passed through their mind? I can't even keep track of mine. There is no way. God Preached Faith to those in the Old Testament just as he preaches Faith to those in the New Testament, and just as it is preached to you and me.
To understand this we must understand that God transcends time. Meaning God is above it, operates outside of it, and is not bound by it. How would you define eternity? Pause....... seriously think about it.
Most would say eternity is time that never ends. Well...... did it begin? We as humans are bound by time. In fact, we are slaves to it. Our entire lives run on time schedules, we can't escape it. You always have some place you have to be at some time. don't you? But for God, Eternity is the absence of time. No beginnin. No end. No nothing. Does your head hurt yet?
God knew how He would save mankind even before He created it. He knew before time as we know it began, that Jesus Christ would save all of His creation. How's that for predestination?
If that confuses you tell me, and we will talk more. I didn't want to write a novel..... so believe it or not, you got the short version. I'm going to stop for now. I was going to get into ordinances and sacraments, but this is long enough, and that would have added too much. Hopefully I have worked your mind enough to allow you to sleep tonight. Comments and questions are welcomed. Stupid arguments are not. God bless you all.
6 comments:
Hey! We don't care about your $500.00 gift card...What a way to ruin a good discussion, a commercial break.
Good post, P-hill. You and your scholarly work and stuff. Obviously things are going your well with your youth group.
yeah.... I never dreamed that after 8 months I'd be explaining things this complex
Wow... that's a lot of stuff. A lot of good stuff too. Not half as good as a $500 free gift card. Who could pass that up?
Question: What does it say about creation when after God was completed, he later realized that it was indeed "not good" for man to be alone? Do "all we really need is God" a justified statement at all and how does it affect our theology towards how we view God and each other?
Question: What is the gospel?
Thoughts: Is the gospel just about God sending his Son to redeem us from our sins? How does "the creation crying out as in birthpangs" play into as Paul, the Psalms, etc describes?
Personal: I am a firm believer that God had a lot more intended than just our personal salvation in stake in the Incarnation. Now I know that your shooting this for a very deliberate audience, but I guess I would have liked a few comments about the defeat of evil and redemption of the kosmos in general.
Concern: Calvinism (predestination) seems to be the main thing that Christianity is best described by. (I'm actually assuming that your kids are the ones who are bringing up Calvinism, and your just doing your best to explain it to them. I commend your efforts man. God bless!) One thing that I have noticed up here in Vancouver is that while some people are still inclined towards Reformed theology, I haven't heard anyone bring up the points of Calvinism as a definition of what type of Christian one may be. I don't know if it just because we're all so close to Southern Seminary, or the church's general history of the area, but the fact that people define theirselves on how much they agree/disagree with Calvinism as problematic.
Now I realize that your kids are going to ask about, and I'm really not sure what good imput I can give you on the matter. I know that unless a person intends to believe in Reformed theology proper (and may God have mercy on them), it may be better to not use any part of thay language as examples of what Christianity is. Like I said, I have little idea of how to put it into practice. My only suggestion is to approach the subject responsibilty, don't use it for the definition of how we Christians should believe, but base orthodox Christianity on the historical creeds of the church. Is anyone in agreement with me on this topic in general, or what other opinions/insights might I be missing?
I didn't see where you were going with the entire angel dialog. Maybe I just missed the point of it, and if I did I do apologize. Perhaps a way to lead into the discussion of free will? If thats the case then I don't know if your thought process wouldn't be better understood without it. Once again, just the way I was reading it, so please edit appropriately and not just what I see as a possible change.
Those were just a few concerns I had on it. I loved the opening statements (and like I said, I got a little lost with angels, but I just may be missing a progression of thinking on your part). It reminded me of Tom Wright's latest book "Simply Christian" which really helped me view God and the problem of evil. I would definately suggest this book to you for a great follow-up to you post. You will agree with a lot of what he says, and may be able to use a few of his ilustrations in youth group.
Hope the comments help. I'm sure you need as many as you can get when your dealing with youth. God bless.
I think the main thing about the angels was that God created them, the 3 known archangels he gave free will, with which 1 of them chose to turn away from God, which is ultimately what can happen, and usually does, if given the choice. On that level, can we say that Satan is really "humanlike" rather than "godlike"? Maybe that's why he isn't happy.
On the Gospel: I think the Gospel is much more than the mere sending of a savior as a sacrifice of atonement. I think it is the story of how a God reaches out to the creation of his hands as a desperate plea for the recognition of his glory. Does He need to do that? Of course not, He is God. But at the same time, what is a God that goes unnoticed and not worshipped? The gospel is the explanation of the who and how and why of eternity, the what is part of the how and the where is obviously everywhere.
I don't really know what you're talking about when you bring up the conflict between calvinism and reformed theology. Personally I thought Calvinists were a bit too strict on practices of faith, with rules enforcing how baptism seems to be the way that the Holy Spirit manifests itself in an outward reflection amidst a congregation, (which is false, we are Baptized by the Spirit, and through the Spirit, which is already resident within the soul, so as to bury the sins that were repented of in death, and allow the soul to be resurrected to walk in the light of the glory of God the Father.) This, of course, is all spiritual, and the act of baptism only serves as a topical and tangible solution to explain how the soul is cleansed of sin after repentance. We do not to receive it at baptism, this is merely a church dogma that serves as a requisite to fulfill membership rules most of the time.
All that other stuff like predestination is also another word tht people use to segregate themselves as a means to find a way to calim others as wrong and therefore forfeit of God's grace. Does it exist? Outside of our understanding, of course. But the thing to remember is this: humanity is a finite creature, incapable of understanding an infinite concept, no matter how big you think your brain is. All that is really necessary to know is this: Before time was God, as well as during and after, which means that God always exists in his present, just as we exist in our presence, that extends beyond the time of ants or flies, we were here first, and we will be here after they die. God knows everything, he would suck at his job if he didn't. That means he does know what you and I have done, are doing, and will do. He has seen it already, since he during our life and well after its over at the same time, (again, a linear, manmade concept). So to say that God has put a limit on who goes to heaven and who doesn't based on actions we have yet to do or have already done is preposterous, he has enabled all to come to his table as a result of Christ, and to say that even with Grace bestowed upon you you are to be damned is also absurd. Then you have free will. To say that God has set us up a plan that is not deviated from at all is both true and false. God's plan for us all is to get to heaven. We can choose to go there or not. But since God is a God of both mercy and justice, he gives us ample opportunities to coem back to him. Those of us who don't make it don't simply because we have continually avoided the necessary correct decision God has given us. Does God's plan change? No. Does the path change? No, Christ is the only way. The thing is that the choices we make that are "God-inspired" are simply those we make based on things that will ultimately bring us back to a walk with Christ. The funny thing about that is you never know that until the aftermath. So, does predestination exist? Only if you truly understand what the actual destination is, and how you are ultimately supposed to get there. People realy make it harder than it is supposed to be. So where do I stand? Calvinist or Reformed?
On second thought, maybe it isn't that hard for us meatsacks to see, but chances are I am wrong.
Josh I'm answering one question tonight, and then stopping, because it is nearly 11.... I've slept none this week, and I have to be up at 6 tomorrow. You were confused about the Angels..... I used them for a couple of reasons... Mostly I wanted to teach my kids about them, because they are unfamiliar with them.... yes I used them to demonstrate free will, because I wanted them to know that God gave it to all of His creature's and not just humans. But A lot of it was to further illustrate the aspect of time outside of what we know here on earth... and in a way I used the existance of the archangels to show more of God's creation, as well as set up the existance of evil and what brought it about. As for the rest, I will get back to you.... I need rest to be able to be coherant in my thoughts
Josh... First off I would like to point out that many of the things you bring up I purposely did not touch on, mostly because I felt it would confuse the audience this was directed to... namely my youth kids. It is important to remember that they are not upper level college students, and seminary students like the majority of people reading this blog. I would also like to point out that the term Calvanism was never once used, and predestination was not my focus, just a means of making my point. Yes my kids are asking questions about predestination, and rather than telling them what to believe, I am giving them a means by which to think through their beliefs.
As for your questions. Do I believe the gospel is simply defined as God's plan of salvation for His people through the work of His son Jesus? Absolutely. The term Gospel, means Good news. the good news is given to the people... that good news is that Jesus saved them. Does that mean it is the only thing God cared about? By no means. He has more plans for more things than my mind could ever fathom... but the gospel itself was directed towards his creation.
As for your question about creation, and does man need more than God, I don't believe it was a matter of God looking back on His creation of "Adam" and saying it was not good.
If you look at Genesis 1, creation of the female is briefly mentioned,but not at all in detail, that was done in chapter two. I don't at all believe God was admitting a mistake by creating her. Genesis 2 says that "there was not found a suitable companion." Do we really think that God did not know that ahead of time? It is an insult to Him if we do believe that. After all, He had already created all the other animals both male and female... so that they would multiply and populate the earth. Man and woman are both different and the same. The same in regards that God created both man and woman for the sake of reporduction and survival of the species. But still different in the fact that they were not created simultaneaously. This was done as a gift, a special present to His most prized creation...the one He took time to create in His own image. Eve being created from Adam's rib is how God made a statement of importance. It signifies a close bond that humans have that other animals were not given the opportunity for. Humans are capable of love both for each other, as well as their creator. Because of this gift... marriage and relationships are possible. we are able to seek moer than just sex for pleasure and survival of the species. God gave us the gift to be able to know and love each other, and bring joy to each opther throughout life. animals do not have the gift of having life partners ( leaving out the 1 time in a thousand it might happen in a zoo or with pets.)
So to answer your question, does man need anyone but God? NO! It is important to realize the difference between something being good, and something being necessary. Man could have ben just as happy praising God all day long. But God saw that it would be better for Him to have a companion, and He gave that gift... it is just unfortunate for us that Satan came along and mees that gift up so that we no longer use it in the way it was designed. God's designs were perfect, His gifts were perfect, and they still are. The problem is that we use, and abuse, them in ways they were not intended to be used. Do you think that God ever intended sex to be a dirtys word that is stigmatized and shunned when spoken from the pulpit? No, the problem is that humans have perverted sex into something it was never meant to be. But that is another topic for another day. Moving on.
God created both male and female... that was His plan all along. He did not create man, and then realize it was a mistake not to have created woman. He did not create them simultaneously. There are a few reasons for this... one we talked about... that being the special gift of taking wman from man's rib. But also man was created first, and in fact, had named all of the animals before woman was created according to genesis 2. Why was this done? It was to establish man's place at the head. 1st... to establish the species place as the most dominant on the planet, but Man named the animals to establish His place in the relationship. Not a higher unequal place... but still at the head of the family. No offense meant to women... but God desigend man to be the leader in a relationship and the head of the family. Don't take offense to it... it is not meant to be offensive if you understand it.
You said you would like to see more about the cosmos, and defeating of Evil and stuff..... if I continue this into a series...(possible, but not likely) I mayinclude that in like theology 201... or 301..... but I feel it is too advanced for 101, and would be a mess of confusion to the younger minds at the moment.
Post a Comment